Chapter 1: The Rogues and Four Letter Word evolve into the early Outlaws    As recalled by Herb Pino

I actually met Hughie at a party somewhere down by Ybor City around 1964 or 1965.  He was playing an old Silvertone guitar then. Kids were doing dances like the Jerk and the Swim.  It wasn't all that long after that I had the chance to audition for a band called "The Rogues", and Hughie was one of the members.  I remembered him from the party where we had previously met.

When I joined the band in late '65 or early '66, it was still called "The Rogues".  The members at that time were:  Rick Mahoney on bass; Hoyt Taylor on electric organ; Hughie Thomasson on guitar; and Dave Dix  on the drums, and I sang lead vocals.  Within a few months Rick Mahoney quit and was replaced by Phil Humberg.  Shortly after that Hoyt Taylor quit  to go back to college, and was replaced by Bill Mann on guitar.  After about 6 months we replaced Bill Mann with a real good ole guy named Hobie O'Brien.

In about 1967, Dave Dix's dad, who was our manager, dropped us because we weren't following "the game plan."  At that time we were called "The Four Letter Words" so the change was easy.  We didn't play for awhile and Phil, Hobie, and myself lived in a trailer, right by the train tracks, in Lutz, Florida.  Dave and Hughie would come out to see us.  One day we set up a meeting with a guy named Frank Guidry, who had a band called "The Outlaws"  which had just broken up, and it was agreed that if we let him join our band, we would be called "The Outlaws".

We practiced at Frank Guidry's house.  We set up in the kitchen and living room.  At that time, Phil Humberg decided to quit to get married, and moved to Boston.  Hobie O'Brien also left to get married. We replaced Phil Humberg  with Frank O'Keefe, which means, enter Jimmie Britton, who became our main roadie, and Paul D, who became our manager.  He had been the manager of the old "Outlaws" band in the Frank Guidry lineup.

When Hobie O'Brien was in the band, he lived for awhile off of Lake Magdeline in what was then north Tampa.  His house was 100 feet from the water line.  About 200 yards from the house, along the water line, was a place where we used to party.  We used to sit around in this little clearing that had trees all around, drinkin and other stuff, (us, not the trees) and telling stories.  All of us used to comment on how green the grass was near the water and we figured it was because of the high tides. That is where the title "Green Grass and High Tides" came from.  A place we used to love to party and hang out at (just us and the little critters.)  The song of the same name came later.

By the way, when we were "The Four Letter Words" we once played at a football stadium, off  Dale Mabry, near Gandy Blvd. We were the opening act for "Sam the Sham and The Pharoahs" and "The Music Machine", whose hit single was, "Talk, Talk". We did better then them and they were really pissed.

We played at Curtis Hixon Hall in a smaller room with the "Royal Guardsmen" who had just released "Snoopy and the Red Baron!" (this would be 1966 or early 1967)

In 1969 that we played two big shows at Curtis Hixon Hall.  One show we opened for Creedence Clearwater Revival along with John Mayall and the Blues Breakers (July 6, 1969).  The second time was Dion, BB King, and Janis Joplin
(November 16, 1969-the concert Joplin was arrested for obscenity at by the Tampa Police).  While our name didn't make the ticket, neither did Dion's.  But at least WE didn't get arrested .....
 

Shortly after this we recorded our second never to be released album.
 

Herbert J. Pino, 2000, used by Permission
 

Chapter 2: The lost recordings As recalled by Herb Pino

As the Four Letter Words, in about 1966, we did actually make one record---a 45 released on Paris Tower Records.  The two songs were "Goodbye" and "The Quadruple Feature in Cinemascope and Color at the Drive In Movie Tonight" and were written by a disc jockey Brooke Chamberlain of WALT.  About 5000 copies of the record were pressed, and about 2,000 actually sold.  The only airplay this little gem got was on WALT.

As the Outlaws, during the time that Paul D was our manager.  we recorded two albums.  Neither was ever released.

The first was at Epic Studios, in New York City in early 1968.  The single that was to be released before the album was a song called "Fate", which  Frank O'Keefe and I wrote.  After recording the album the producer took us all out to an underground health club and seemed to enjoy watching all of us swimming in the pool, as he followed each one of us around, individually, for a period of time.  Then afterwards he took us to see the premiere of "2001 A Space Odyssey". (editor's note 2001 debuted in April 1968) The next day he told us we would be hearing from him, so we packed up and hit the road for home.

Boy were we niave...on the way home, our manager told us that the album would be released but that there was a condition.  We asked what the condition was and Paul informed us that the producer said that he wanted the whole band to spend a weekend with him at his hideaway in the mountains of New York state, and that afterwards he would release the album!  We asked Paul why he wanted us to do that and Paul said "Because he's gay, and wants to sleep with the members of the band!"

After Hughie revived me and Dave Dix revived Frank O'Keefe, and Frank Guidry was still passed out we said "Are you crazy? Is he out of his mind?".  And we all said "No F_______ Way!!!!"

Then Paul said, "That's what I told the producer but if I had told you guys to do it, you would have done it! Right?"  After again reviving Dave and Frank Guidry reviving Hughie we said "Not you nor anyone could make us do anything like that!"

So as you may have guessed it, the album  was never released.

The second experience we had with recording involved Phil Gernhard, the guy who produced "Abraham, Martin and John", and Dick Holler, who wrote it.  Gernhard had heard us play and liked us so much that he said he would produce an album for us for which Holler  wrote two songs,  "The Miami New Rock Revival"  and  "The Cookie Man".

Included in that album were several songs that Frank O'Keefe and I wrote. One was titled "The Rainbow Band", inspired by an old bass drum Frank and I found in our attic in the house we were living in, a few blocks from our manager's house.  On it was a picture of a man and a woman in a canoe on a lake; over them was a rainbow and below that it said "The Rainbow Band".  The song was sort of a Sgt Peppers' type song. Another song on the album was "Kansas City Queen", which Frank O'Keefe and I also wrote.  I don't remember the rest of the songs we recorded at that time.

Just before we went in to Criteria Studios in Miami to record the album, the producer told us that Frank Guidry was holding us back and that we should get rid of him.  Our manager, Paul, also insisted on this. None of us wanted to do it,  but we did what we had to do for the good of the band (or so we thought).

When the album was almost completed,  a parnter of the producer felt that the two songs they had written for the album were not strong enough to be released as a single, so we decided to record and release Neil Youngs' "Cinnamon Girl", because we did a really incredible rendition of the song.  After the album was completed and mixed, the producer told us he would get back with us when everything was ready for release.  So we went back to Tampa.

Weeks went by and we didn't hear anything from the producer until one day we heard our version of "Cinnamon Girl" on the radio being done by a bubble gum band.  Needless to say we confronted our manager, Paul, about this.  He got on the phone, made several calls, and after hanging up, he informed us that the Phil Gernhard had decided to give "Cinnamon Girl" and the two songs Holler  wrote, to another band.  And that was that! (note from webmaster: I've been told the band who got the material was "Chair" out of Alabama).

We were so upset that we grabbed a bunch of mic stands and went to the Gernhard's  St. Petersburg office to confront him, but the office was cleaned out and he was loooooong gone.  What a creep!

Thus ends the story of the two lost albums we recorded!

Herbert J. Pino, 2000, used by Permission

Chapter 3: More on The lost recordings from Ronny Elliott
(Note this is compiled from a series of emails from Ronny Elliott, has been read by and is used with his permission--thanks Ronny!)

There wasn't much of a stint in the Outlaws, but I do believe that it was the creative peak of the band. I guess that it started about 1968 or so. I was working with the Outlaws for Phil Gernhard, the producer, trying to get them a record deal, while playing in Duckbutter as it was being put together.

The band consisted of Hughie Thomasson, Frank O'Keefe, Dave Dix , a vocalist/guitarist named Herbie Pino and a rhythm player Frank Guidry. All of the guys wanted to boot Frank Guidry, who was definitely the weak link.   I've always felt guilty about his firing.

They convinced me to join on bass and moved Frank to rhythm.  This was the beginning of their original music period. Frank, Hughie and Herbie wrote some beautiful tunes.  I remember at least a couple of the shows that I worked with the band were in Orlando. Specifically one with the Nightcrawlers. They were great and it was the only time I ever saw them.  I eventually went back to Duckbutter because they seemed helpless to play or record for some reason. The Outlaws continued four piece until they picked up Billy Jones. (webmaster's note: This is the configuration shown in the promo shot on the first page of the website)

This might shake up Herbie's memory. Phil Gernhard was the promoter for the Janis Joplin show that you mention elsewhere on the site, which really means that I promoted it. I was forced into this crap work because we generally didn't have enough "record producing" work for Phil to justify my salary.

I don't talk much about my Outlaws connection because I had nothing to do with their success and because I was with them for such a short time. There is one element of my involvement that I have always been proud of, though. They played only covers when I started working a&r with them They agreed to start playing the tunes that Hughie, Herbie and Frank were writing if I started playing with them. I also talked them into doing more obscure and less obvious covers. Ask Herbie if he can remember working up "Hit The Road Jack?!"

Phil and I took the band into Criteria Studios in Miami for their first real recording sessions. The product was terrific but Phil decided not to shop the material for a deal. I offered to pick up the expenses for the session so that I could shop it but Phil declined, saying, "It's my tape. It's not for sale."

Thought you would enjoy the gist of that Miami conversation between me and Phil Gernhard. It was at dinner the night of the session. They only had several hours booked and Herbie's right, a lot was recorded. In addition to Hughie and Frankie's songs we cut a thing called "Cookie Man" that Phil had gotten from a publisher. Dick Holler, who wrote Abraham, Martin and John was at the session with us and might have played a little keyboard on the songs.  Anyway, he was at the restaurant with me and Phil for this ridiculous conversation:

PG: I've decided not to do anything with the tapes.
RE: Why?!
PG: No one song really jumps out and grabs me over any of the others.
RE: Well, what if you had been doing demos wit the Beatles and cut "She Loves You" "I Want To Hold Your Hand" and "Please Please Me" all in one session?
PG: Are you trying to compare them to the Beatles?
RE: No. I'm just suggesting that everything we cut is great. I know we can get them a deal!
PG: Nope.
RE: Let me pay for the sessions and I'll get them a deal.
PG: They're my tapes. They're not for sale.

I did worry for a while that the Miami fiasco might break up the band. I think it really just served as an introduction to the real music business.

Phil wouldn't sell the Criteria tapes now even if he had them. He was always an unbelieveable jerk. He never really kept anything anyway.  Phil was a tyrant and Paul was scared to death of him. None of that stuff that Phil had was saved. Some of it turned up at Flea markets where guys had scavenged it at dumps but that was years ago.  By the way, he's a jerk but he did produce "Stay" by Maurice Williams and the Zodiacs, "Abraham, Martin and John" with Dion and "Let Your Love Flow" by the Bellamy Brothers.

I don't know what the guys have to say about Paul D.  but he did give his all for the band. He was a nut but he loved those kids.

Too bad the world never heard the Criteria tapes...great stuff!

Feel free to use anything you want of mine anytime.

Chapter 4:  Outlaws and OUTLAWS  As recalled by Herb Pino

There was the time, on a hot summer night, I believe it was in '68, we played at a place called "The White Rabbit" in Sarasota, Florida when "The Outlaws" motorcycle gang showed up after our first set and proceeded to tell us how upset  and bothered they were that we were using their name for our band "without their permission!"

At this point Dave Dix, Hughie Thomasson, Frank Guidry, Frank O'Keefe and myself became "instant diplomats", knowing there were at least 45 to 50 of them and only 5 of us, plus our roadie,  James Britton (JB) as a last resort.  All of us at almost the same time told them to at least listen to our next set and if they didn't like it, we would change the name of the band "right then and there!"

We got up on stage and did our Beatles "Sgt Pepper's" set, sprinkled with a few originals like, "Fate" written by myself and "Windy Cities Blue" written by Frank O'Keefe.  It was, without a doubt, bar none, the BEST performance we ever gave.  It HAD to be.

The local Outlaws' motorcycle leader told us "we were the best band they'd ever heard" and told us "they were proud to have such a good band using their name and that we could keep it" also "if we ever needed help in any situation, to give them a call and they would come to our aid."

Shortly after they left we were able to revive JB.  It made JB extremely happy not to be "The Last Resort!"

Chapter 5: The Naked Truth As recalled by Herb Pino

Between '67 and '69 the band used to play at the University of Florida (Gainesville) Gator football team's fraternity parties at least once or twice a month.  That fraternity really liked the band a lot because we had an act that we did which was called "The Blackjack Strip Rock" and they always requested that we do that act.

"The Blackjack Strip Rock" game went as follows:
Between each song, one of us in the band would play a game of blackjack (that person played for everyone in the band) with someone in the crowd who was up close to the stage.  If that person lost the hand they had to remove one article of clothing and then we would play our next song.  If the person playing for the band lost, everyone in the band had to remove one article of clothing.

Needless to say, on very many ocassions, by the end of the job, EVERYBODY would be playing in nothing but underwear and boots. We were paid extra in cash, liquor, and other stuff whenever we did that act!

(Note that I received emails from both David Dix and Frank Guidry saying this did not happen while either of them were in the band)